Leather quality - who's best?

[Fuuma]

It is called Prestige. Well, it cannot hurt the quality (obviously), but it can hurt the price (as it maybe did - average 1500$ -.-'). Do you mind me asking where you got this information from?
Also, maybe it is possible they use very small calf hides (I have seen them as small as 0.5 square meters).

I pretty much concur but am not sure that there is just one person in the whole video. Why would that be strange anyhow? Or perhaps you are acquainted with the brand and know that there is a division of labour? If this is so, is it not possible that the process shown here is part of their top line or a MTM/bespoke operation (if they have one) that is made differently?

Lobb: Won't go into detail but it came directly from their factory. Don't remember the hide dimensions but they aren't the smallest ones, which really impressed me.

Guidi: Making an educated guess, one of the biggest problems Italian workers have faced is that it is really hard to reconvert as most factories are almost textbook Fordian in the way they fragment the work down to its smallest component.

Béatrice Amblard: She really has a dedicated core of fans/clients. May I ad that she learned her craft at Hermès .

[Ares]

Great insight Aries. I'd be interested if you could comment on any of the buried leather (Avantindietro and Guidi(?)) I've always been curious about that.

I'm not exactly sure which leather you are talking about. It would be a lot of help if you could show a source or post a picture of it. Maybe you mean the leather which was buried underground for a couple of years to achieve its disstresed look? Well, if it is the quality of the leather you are worried about, I think the shell cordovan is Horween's (basically the world reference for cordovan) and it has, as any other good quality cordovan, superior durability, strenght and gets more supple as you use it. The finish is, of course, a subjective criteria which I do not want to get into. As for the burrying part, I am not familiar with the exact procedure but it probably had no effect on the quality of the leather (on the contrary, it might have been weakened). The whole thing reminds me of the "famous" russian reindeer leather (in the 1700's the ship transporting it sunk, so the leather rested under sea for 200 years before it was found again) which is often referred as the "best in the world". In both cases, I think the story is much more interesting than the leather itself and used to make a hype around it to drive the prices up.

Lobb: Won't go into detail but it came directly from their factory. Don't remember the hide dimensions but they aren't the smallest ones, which really impressed me.

Thanks for the info. I appreciate it.

Guidi: Making an educated guess, one of the biggest problems Italian workers have faced is that it is really hard to reconvert as most factories are almost textbook Fordian in the way they fragment the work down to its smallest component.

Well, that is certainly true in some aspects, but there is a lot (especially as we go to south Italy, where there is much less industrialization) of old factories and workshops who never converted in the first place.

Béatrice Amblard: She really has a dedicated core of fans/clients. May I ad that she learned her craft at Hermès .

Yes, that is probably where she learned to overprice as well. :-D

[mortalveneer]

First of all, thanks for the informative posts, Ares.

Not being able to add anything near so substantive, I'll instead share a maker's mark from an early pair of MA+ leather pants...

[tron]

Ares

I'd never heard such a story about the reindeer leather. That's an interesting story and I can only imagine the wear and distortion from sitting down there for so long. I'll certainly look in to that further.

As for the buried leather I remember reading something about Guidi (I think) burying leather in the Afghan desert for some time. I was never able to find much info on it unfortunately.

As well the Avantindietro field project (http://sartorialoft.blogspot.ca/2011...unearthed.html) where they buried complete shoes in a field for some years.

The fusion of natural elements with the leather and the effect they have on one and other is infinitely intruguing to me so any more light you could shed on either of those would be much appreciated. Even similar techniques or legends like the sunken ship.
Welcome by the way

[jskidder1]

Here is a link regarding the 200yr old reindeer leather:

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/28/nyregion/a-200-year-old-gift-from-under-the-sea.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

[Ares]

I'd never heard such a story about the reindeer leather. That's an interesting story and I can only imagine the wear and distortion from sitting down there for so long. I'll certainly look in to that further.

If you wish to read more information on this you can have a look at this:

http://www.atheneenglish.com/general/200-year-old-russian-reindeer-leather

It has a very specific hue (the color is called Russian calf and is deepend by the long time spent underwater - and in mud, therefore preserved) and crossed hatched markings across its surface (this is because of the old tanning method in which you hand carve the leather to let the bark soak in more thoroughly) so it has a really unique look.

The fusion of natural elements with the leather and the effect they have on one and other is infinitely intruguing to me so any more light you could shed on either of those would be much appreciated. Even similar techniques or legends like the sunken ship.

I am not a tanning expert and my knowledge of the chemical properties of leather is very limited, but I do think that, in a way, all the burying cases try to simulate vegetable tanning processes usually occurring in a tannery. There they use tannins (therefore the name tanning and tannery) contained in barks and leaves to make the leather more suitable for our needs. They soak the leather in big pools over long amounts of time (some over a year). I have never heard any evidence that burying them however, has any effect other than providing a somewhat distressed (which can be replicated in a tannery/workshop as well) effect. There has been some talk that the leather becomes suppler and develops a deeper color/patina, but vegetable tanned leather does that over time anyway (if cared for properly). I do not think the process is accelerated either.

There has been done a similar experiment by Silvano Lattanzi. He has burried a couple of pairs only to find out the hole had been filled with mud and water, leaving the soles (by far the strongest and most waterproof part of the shoe) completely destroyed. Here are a couple of pictures from his website.



Being the major troll he is, Silvano presented this utter fail as a revelation and the process a success, charging each of the shoes 12000$, even tough he had to clean, refurbish, relast, resole and repaint the shoes, leaving almost nothing of the "Mother Nature" patina left. Ridiculous.

You can read more on his website including a nifty bed time story:

http://www.silvanolattanzi.com/usa_uk/mondo.html under "The Buried Shoes".

Welcome by the way

Thank you.

[Ares]

While you are at it, check out the "Penis shoe" under "The Creations" > "Men" > "Special Orders". Probably the only thing he has done properly in his whole lifetime.

[tron]

oh lord

[ErnstLudwig]

people like Gabriele D'Annunzio can wear them

http://www.gqitalia.it/show/lifestyle/2011/5/gli-abiti-a-luci-rosse-e-gli-accessori-da-dandy-hot-di-gabriele-d-annunzio-spiegato-al-vittoriale-da-giordano-bruno-guerri

[LEB]

^
thank you for this wonderful, enlightening, well investigated statement.

[pantanal]

Interesting thread. Almost no mention of real quality bespoke shoemakers who make some of the best and most expensive shoes in the word. Takes a year in fittings to get these shoes

Take a look at

1) Silvano Lattanzi shoes

http://www.silvanolattanzi.com/usa_uk/home.html

2) Berluti bespoke line not the ready made line
3) lazlo Vass in Hungary...a gem. read his book

http://www.amazon.com/Handmade-Shoes-Men-Lazlo-Vass/dp/3833160454

4) Paolo Scafora in Napoli - the art of Napolitano shoemaking


Look at the construction of these shoes and the work that has gone into them. Put them side by side with your CCP, Guidis, A1923 and you will see that they are not even in the same league

Dont get me wrong, I have Guidis, a1923 but when I want to impress I will take out a scafora or lattanzi or Vass custom shoe.

These guys are artisans not designers and have been making shoes in the family for generations with skill going from father to son and so on. Lot of history and science from trial and error in their past. This kind of skill is not picked up by a designer who goes:i need to expand my line so lets start making shoes now)

Same things go for the top tailors in Napoli and London

Same for shirt makers. You want a shirt made go have anna matuozzo make a shirt for you in her atelier in napoli made with carlo riva fabric and then you can compare the fit, the quality and the impeccable construction that comes from real artisans

[Fuuma]

Have you read the thread? WTF

[pantanal]

I did...i guess there is one reference to Silvano Lattanzi by Ares

[kunk75]

saturday night live couldn't do a better parody of that lattanzi site

[Fuuma]

I did...i guess there is one reference to Silvano Lattanzi by Ares

You did read but you did not understand.

Your main point is:
Interesting thread. Almost no mention of real quality bespoke shoemakers who make some of the best and most expensive shoes in the word.

The problem with your post is:
It is one of the main topic of this thread. That we didn't mention Lattanzi is irrelevant.

ps: Vass does not offer what certain people would call true bespoke (custom made last to your measurements) but rather modified lasts, he still makes very good hand made shoes (this is also true of the RTW). I believe it points to the rather restrictive definition of bespoke that has developed on online forums and not to the myriad approaches an artisan may have to bespoke.