Your recent purchases

[pseudonym]

I finally tracked down a pair of 45.5 for a perfect fit after a few years of floating between 45s and 46s so I know how you feel.

Isn't it funny that literally a half a cm makes the world of difference. I have not experienced this as much with the boots, but always with derbies. I am surprised most stockists do not carry half sizes at least in the derbies, especially as I hear more and more people in the same situation.

[several_girls]

I am reading two possibilities from this part of your argument.
could you please clarify?

Are you saying because you don't eat meat you dont have to make this distinction between animals and people.......or are you saying that you see animals on the same level (in terms of life value) as people?


Also, the idea of non human personhood is pure garbage, regardless of what society it exist in. I am all for respecting peoples rights to believe what they want to believe and for societies to hold whatever standards they want to as they have the freedom to do that, but I too have a right to examine certain ideas and conclude in my own mind whether such things be folly or not.......and I am not saying that there arent beings/ lifeforms existing as persons, that are non human beings. but I find the idea of animals being on the same level as human beings to be ridiculous.........

Human beings are the highest and most valuable lifeforms existing on planet earth, and there is no way of escaping that

I'm going to humbly request a mod to move this entire discussion to its own thread if that's not already in the works.

The argument is as follows:
1. We can experience pain, suffering and trauma. It's not pleasant, in fact it's pretty bad and we don't like it at all, and spend a lot of our time and energy preventing and avoiding such things.
2. Other animals can also experience pain, suffering and trauma. As mammals, it is especially easy to sympathize with other mammals such as dogs, cats, horses, cows or pigs.
3. Humans are able to make a choice as to whether or not animals such as cows, pigs, chickens or fish will experience pain/suffering/trauma resulting from their internment in factory farms and/or slaughter.
4. I don't wish to be the cause of another being's suffering.
5. I choose not to eat meat; meat consumption supports factory farms, slaughter, etc.

As for personhood, I think you're construing the concept to liberally. Personhood does not signify an equality with human beings. I also challenge your notion that non-human personhood is 'pure garbage.' Non-human personhood is established in present-day American and European societies: we give dogs and cats names, shelter, affection. We share stories about them, we can intuit their emotions. Dogs, cats and horses themselves have a legal standing differentiated from other mammals. Why?

Dolphins have an intelligence purported to be equal to or greater than human intelligence. Elephants hold funeral ceremonies for their deceased. Apes and chimps of course have a self-awareness.

I also challenge you on your last point. Humans are only by certain self-serving and narrow measures the "most valuabee", "highest" or "most advanced." Tardigrades are the most fit species on this planet in the biological sense.

[Skye X]

^Exactly this. And for more reading:

http://www.vegansociety.com/become-a-vegan/why.aspx

http://www.veganoutreach.org/whyvegan/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_Liberation_%28book%29

[zamb]

we need to be more compassionate to the plants too, not because the cannot speak or make sounds doesn't mean they don't feel pain, and want to live as much as we do.......so we might as well extend our compassion to all kinds of life and just go on and die of hunger........nothing wrong with that, just one more species (human beings) going extinct, on a planet that is becoming grossly overpopulated anyways.
And while we are at it let us punish all the other animals who eat other animals to survive, after all, A Lion that kills a rabbit for food, is only murdering his fellow life form........

Listen man, there is Learning and the is learning......there is so much crap that is believed by intelligent people that its often mind boggling to me. we don't need big professors in high places and dumb scientist to tell us how this wold works, all we need to do is simply observe and we will learn a lot more than these sophist will always try to persuade us to believe......

I have no problem with people making a personal choice to become vegetarians/ vegans, as this is their prerogative and I comment that because no harm is done in being vegetarians/ vegans, but the idea that there is some Moral/ ethical undertone, that should spur others to become so is ridiculous
While I personally eat meat, as a jamaican my diet is for the most part a vegetarian and predominantly organic diet, as growing in a family that was not rich it was just more economical and because my family owned a farm........the stricture of the society in jamaica then, made it easier anyways. However the idea that we need to be vegans to end suffering of animals is pure nonsense..........what should we become to end plant suffering?
Plants have life and should be respected too....
Who are we to say animal life should be preserved but plant life is OK to be consumed, by what mans do we conclude we are doing the world at large any good by choosing one kind of diet over another?
its interesting that the same people who promote these ideas will often say the world has no purpose, and promote the doctrine of evolution/ survival of the fittest......

[beardown]

Isn't it funny that literally a half a cm makes the world of difference. I have not experienced this as much with the boots, but always with derbies. I am surprised most stockists do not carry half sizes at least in the derbies, especially as I hear more and more people in the same situation.

Agreed. It's always been a crap shoot buying shoes online for me but with guidi, it's the toughest one to get a comfortable fit in. If you find the perfect sizing in backzips, it's going to be different with lace-ups or oxfords. And then you have to anticipate a bit of breaking in and stretching. I guess this qualifies as a first-world problem but doesn't matter how much I'm in love with a shoe/boot...if it doesn't fit properly, it's going to sit in my closet.

I imagine that retailers not stocking half sizes is about maximizing their buy. Given that brands like VA and Julius can get away with 1-4 sizing, I guess half sizes are too specific but sometimes it's the only way to find a pair that will really fit.

[kuugaia]

^ Would just like to add that this problem is amplified for people with flat feet, which I am monstrously so. Taking into account break-in, stretch, AND hard orthodics makes buying leather derbies (and some boots) close to impossible online. :( First world problems indeed.

[Nikov]

we need to be more compassionate to the plants too, not because the cannot speak or make sounds doesn't mean they don't feel pain, and want to live as much as we do.......so we might as well extend our compassion to all kinds of life and just go on and die of hunger........nothing wrong with that, just one more species (human beings) going extinct, on a planet that is becoming grossly overpopulated anyways.
And while we are at it let us punish all the other animals who eat other animals to survive, after all, A Lion that kills a rabbit for food, is only murdering his fellow life form........

Listen man, there is Learning and the is learning......there is so much crap that is believed by intelligent people that its often mind boggling to me. we don't need big professors in high places and dumb scientist to tell us how this wold works, all we need to do is simply observe and we will learn a lot more than these sophist will always try to persuade us to believe......

I have no problem with people making a personal choice to become vegetarians/ vegans, as this is their prerogative and I comment that because no harm is done in being vegetarians/ vegans, but the idea that there is some Moral/ ethical undertone, that should spur others to become so is ridiculous
While I personally eat meat, as a jamaican my diet is for the most part a vegetarian and predominantly organic diet, as growing in a family that was not rich it was just more economical and because my family owned a farm........the stricture of the society in jamaica then, made it easier anyways. However the idea that we need to be vegans to end suffering of animals is pure nonsense..........what should we become to end plant suffering?
Plants have life and should be respected too....
Who are we to say animal life should be preserved but plant life is OK to be consumed, by what mans do we conclude we are doing the world at large any good by choosing one kind of diet over another?
its interesting that the same people who promote these ideas will often say the world has no purpose, and promote the doctrine of evolution/ survival of the fittest......

You're saying that becoming a vegan to end the suffering of animals is ridiculous. And the argument you give is that plants suffer too, and nothing is being done by vegans to end their suffering.

I find this to be a weak argument because one point does not exclude the other. That plants suffer when eaten (assuming for the sake of argument that they do) does not eliminate the fact that animals are suffering as well. A vegan makes the choice to end the suffering of animals, specifically. That he does not try to end the suffering of plants as well will, at most, make him a hypocrite (although I personally do not believe this), but it does not make his reason for becoming a vegan a ridiculous one. He is after all accomplishing his goal of ending his participation in the suffering of animals, even though he does not end the suffering of plants.

But why choose animals over plants, you ask? While I don't place humans and animals on the same level, I do believe there is a closer connection between humans and animals than between humans and plants. We are, after all, part of the animal family.

Animals, for instance, have a central nervous system which connects directly to their brains. Same as we do. But plants do not. It is entirely possible that plants may process pain and suffering through some other method that does not involve nerves, but that is not for me to say. I am not denying them their possibility for suffering. I am only explaining why it is rather easy for me to imagine that animals may feel pain and suffering, but yet extending that idea towards plants seems a rather big stretch.

There is also a very real emotional connection between humans and animals that allows us to sympathize more with the suffering of animals rather than plants. Maybe it is because we share some physical features such as eyes, nose, etc.. which makes projecting our own feelings and emotions onto animals that much easier, but whatever the case may be, the emotional connection between humans and animals is definitely easier to make.

So to me, someone who makes life choices because he does not want to contribute to the suffering of a group of beings that he feels a certain emotional connection with (animals) does not seem ridiculous at all.

[zamb]

Nikov,

I never called anyone a hypocrite, I said the position was ridiculous, there is a difference between holding to a principle that can be demonstrated as unsound in its value as opposed to being hypocrite.


My argument is simple, you can find all kind of reasons to explain that you or other vegans or whatever feel a closer connection to animals and as such you have a greater impetus to end animals suffering. the fact of the matter is that we all have a brain, a mind, and an awareness that plants are living things (beings) too and as such who are we to say one kind of life, because it posses a nervous system and a brain and can feel pain is necessarily more valuable and is to be preserved more than the life that ( as far as we assume) doesn't?

My argument is that all ice is to be valued and respected with equal effort, and since the vegan holds the position of not (un)necessarily destroying lifeforms he out to then be compelled by this moral condition to not eat at all, to sacrifice himself for the sake of others..........this is the greatest testament to his convictions that can be made, the refusal to destroy other lifeforms, regardless of the form in which it comes for his own survival!

but the reality is that people need to live, and we cannot mask the choice of not eating because eating is necessary for our survival, so what then should be the case..........what manner should sustainability take?

I propose to should take this form: we should minimize meat consumption, we should, we should make great effort in ensuring that the animals we eat are properly cared for while alive, or hunted, as these animals are perfectly capable of existing in their natural habitual without our help.............Leathers a better when they come as a byproduct of animals consumed rather than exotic skins rather than eliminating leathers altogether. we should minimize our use of dangerous and unhealthy chemicals in the rearing of crops for our own consumption, by using natural fertilizers to grow the crops we eat, foods that are grown locally within a country should not be imported, so as to prevent the unnecessary traffic of food from one location to the next........
Plant trees, care for animals care for people, give the land time to rest, at a certain point so that it can replenish and nourish itself.
there are many ways to live a sustainable caring life, than becoming a vegan/ vegetarian...........

[endorphinz]

some argue that humans make a conscience choice to eat animals and thereby cause them pain and suffering.
I ask these people if animals in the wild make this same choice when hunting their prey? Should they be vegans? How does this fit in with that whole natural selection thing?

For the record, my philosophy is live and let live meaning eat/don't eat, it's all personal choice. I just entered this discussion because I was genuinely curious as to how the above questions would be answered.

ps: in hindsight,maybe live/let live was a poor cliche to use here.

[Heirloom]

For the "good farmers" committed to minimizing the suffering of animals, etc, perhaps they should insist that their cage-free eggs cost the same in the supermarket, even if it eats into their profits. You can't change everyone to your opinion, in any situation, but you can create change when the changes don't negatively affect the people who lack the same passion as you do.

Along these lines, when a designer commits himself to making sweatshop-free clothing of organic cottons, etc, he should work with his retailers to insist his goods be priced more competitively against the likes of the Uniqlos, etc. Such designers can possibly kill the competition if they actually competed against it.

In short, when we have principles, we're not supposed to simply use them as a marketing tool, but be willing to suffer for them, and to do whatever it takes in order to make the changes we seek.

This is a very naive suggestion. The reason why people have pushed the ethics in food industries in the first place is because the price has already been pushed to the extreme. People expect too much for too little. If you want to eat meat, be ready to pay for it, the same goes for wearing cashmere. It's about knowing what it's worth to be able to consume in a way you can stand by it. I only eat meat once a week or less, because I can't afford to eat the nice meat I know I'd want to eat.


in the end, the effort is only to minimize suffering. We're never going to eliminate it. One thing that does cost nothing is to question wether you really need to consume that piece of meat everyday, or if you can be more moderate about wasting.

In the olden days people were concerned about wasting because they put an effort into producing everything the consumed. I think there should be a basic subject in school called "Norm critics" where children are taught to question axiomatic systems, such as meat consumption, gender issues, language use etc. In this class everyone should have to go to a slaughter house and see what it's like, and make up their own mind... some children don't even know that pringles are made from potatos!!!!

[TheThief]

This debate is rife with logical fallacies, it's painful to read.

Anyone have a recent purchase to post to dead this?

[zamb]

This debate is rife with logical fallacies, it's painful to read.

Anyone have a recent purchase to post to dead this?

Yes but this is where someone like you come in, with the mind of of a logician and the analytical acumen you posses it would be nice to hear your position on the subject................

[rider]

these discussions on who stands where regarding how we [humans] justify our desire to incorporate animals into our lifestyles makes me dizzy...there is no right perspective, just hope that one day we will actually live within a moral standard of conduct...after all the biggest difference between the two as i see it, is that humans can justify anything if we want too.

cj, what a heartbreaking post, there was one on bears that you posted not to long ago that i still cant get out of my mind and never will. frankly, if we are going to continue down the path we are on we should be exposed to these kind of truths so we never lose sight of the fact that the flesh we eat and wear doesnt come in neat little plastic packages on a shelf but that animals lives are taken, most likely with extreme suffering, this is where people like temple grandin have my utmost respect. turning a blind eye and it doesnt happen, is one of the most unfortunate hypocrisies of "humankind".

i recently purchased rick owens shearling boots and im sure the little lamb they came from had a shit short life. my cross to bear so i try to balance out my guilty conscience by only eating local farm raised animals (they live better lives than most humans, trust me, i drive by them grazing in huge fields everyday) and also donating to animal welfare groups as much as possible. as idealistic as it might seem i want to believe even small efforts can make huge difference in change, so even though the odds are consumption is going to grow at least we can be advocates for quality of life.

[endorphinz]

^how do you feel when you watch animals hunting on the discovery channel? I find that pretty heart wrenching, but...... ?

sigh, this stuff makes my brain hurt

[marco-von]

In parts columbia its a kind of tradition for the guy to lose his virginity and practice on a donkey before doing it with a woman.

we need to send SZ mag there to get some interviews for the next issue and really cause a vegan shit storm.

beastiality and guidi's confusing sizing guide - Title potential.