Your recent purchases

[byhand]

Yes, I know what SC is. I'm just curious how Albert can identify it as being other than SC from the above photos. I know SC typically doesn't have texture on it, as can be seen in the photos, but couldn't that be a post-tanning choice made by the designer to muck it up? Is it simply too big to be SC? I know it is typically used for smaller items such as shoes and wallets.

[nyarkies]

From what I can recall from my conversation with Ronnie, it is reverse shell to cordovan. So it is not entirely shell.

[TabulaRasa]

View post on imgur.com

Archivo JM Ribot just arrived from Layers London. Thanks to Fred Fan for the help.

[Chinorlz]

From what I can recall from my conversation with Ronnie, it is reverse shell to cordovan. So it is not entirely shell.

Unless a leather production house wanted to waste what is probably pound for pound the most valuable part of a horsehide (with a perpetual shortage of the raw material worldwide), there should be a clear distinction in the hide separation between shell cordovan and the top (dermal) layer that makes up more standard horse leather.

Shell is dense stuff and although in varying thicknesses, doesn't have an almost sueded finish at all by nature of the extracellular/cellular structure of this dense layer.

Shell is also small... each panel (of which each horse has two that can at one time be connected by a thinner band making the two connected pieces looking like a filled-in figure 8) is something like ~2 sq ft in an oblong shape. No horse has a butt cheek big enough to make a bag out of that has large panels. It would have to be pieced together with a lot of pieces (especially if you're trying to cut large rectangular pieces out of it) and EXCEEDINGLY expensive. One plate of genuine shell cordovan wholesale runs $150-200 with some discounts when you go super-high volume like some of the shoemaking companies can get. If 1 pair of shoes uses 2 shell cordovan plates and sells for $2-4k, imagine (if it could be done) what a bag made of double or triple that material quantity should end up retailing for.

This mis-naming pops up every number of months on here because cordovan is a key word (like overlock, overdye, culatta, cold dye etc.) and needs to be clarified because the market sometimes muddies it to increase value of the word as associated with some material.

addendum:

"reverse shell to cordovan" actually makes absolutely no sense.

Horse butt leather maybe was used... but much of the usable hides from a horse are produced as horsefronts/double horse fronts. Horse butt is usually very thick and used for smaller leather goods.

[byhand]

The designer of the bag described it on instagram as "reverse waxed shell cordovan." Puzzling. He must be referring to the body of the bag. The straps are likely cow, the same material he uses for belts. Thanks for the info, Albert. Informative, but I'd like to know what the material actually is. Maybe the bag owner can contact the designer for clarification?

[nicelynice]

There's a lot of miscommunication when it comes to shell cordovan. I've seen the "butt" part of the horse, sometimes called culatta, mistakenly referred to as shell cordovan - this is likely what that bag is. The hindquarters of the horse is often very thick, as pointed out, and can be mistaken for shell. I believe the thick, scarred leathers from A1923 and CCP are from this part of the horse. Either way, no way a piece of shell is large enough to make a bag like that.

(it's still an awesome, awesome bag)

Oh, and for content - Petrosolaum shoes. Made from "oiled horse butt" (that's actually what is written on the tag..)








After a day of wear. Excited to keep breaking these in

[gustavobradley]

Hopefully a less controversial (and definitely less horse-based) new item: I received my first Werkstatt piece as an anniversary gift. Couldn't be happier with it.

[Lohikaarme]

Unless a leather production house wanted to waste what is probably pound for pound the most valuable part of a horsehide (with a perpetual shortage of the raw material worldwide), there should be a clear distinction in the hide separation between shell cordovan and the top (dermal) layer that makes up more standard horse leather.


This mis-naming pops up every number of months on here because cordovan is a key word (like overlock, overdye, culatta, cold dye etc.) and needs to be clarified because the market sometimes muddies it to increase value of the word as associated with some material.

addendum:

"reverse shell to cordovan" actually makes absolutely no sense.

Horse butt leather maybe was used... but much of the usable hides from a horse are produced as horsefronts/double horse fronts. Horse butt is usually very thick and used for smaller leather goods.

(I removed some less-relevant parts)

To address your first bit, actually tanneries do "waste" shell like that.

Feit uses a leather called "semi-cordovan" which is another strange term.

According to a Q&A on Reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/commen...in_the/cra428k) they basically argue that semi-cordovan = guaranteed to have "some" shell, likely at least 10% reading the lines a bit. I'm gonna guess that the Esde bag, calling itself reverse shell to cordovan is more likely to mean somewhere from the shell radiating out onto the rest of the horse butt... so basically the same as the semi-cordovan model.

[nyarkies]

Maybe the bag owner can contact the designer for clarification?

Actuality I did and he said it is shell with the outer parts as regular horse leather. So "semi cordovan" as Lohikaarme posted.

I asked Ronny to create an account here so he can answer your questions directly. Hoefully he does as I think his works fit here in SZ.

[Chinorlz]

(I removed some less-relevant parts)

To address your first bit, actually tanneries do "waste" shell like that.

Feit uses a leather called "semi-cordovan" which is another strange term.

According to a Q&A on Reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/commen...in_the/cra428k) they basically argue that semi-cordovan = guaranteed to have "some" shell, likely at least 10% reading the lines a bit. I'm gonna guess that the Esde bag, calling itself reverse shell to cordovan is more likely to mean somewhere from the shell radiating out onto the rest of the horse butt... so basically the same as the semi-cordovan model.

When I read that reddit, it honestly sounds like they also do not have any idea of what they're talking about. The skin of a horse (most of the leather) is a completely different layer than shell (like thick sheets of paper laid on top of each other). You can't cut a shoe pattern to "include" more/less shell versus the standard leather. They simply are not processed together. The requirements are different and the thickness would be tremendous (unusable for sneakers for sure).

Until I see the uncut, tanned/dyed hide that they use as a pattern, this simply does NOT make any manufacturing sense and any other person on here that works with leather hides should agree.

[Lohikaarme]

When I read that reddit, it honestly sounds like they also do not have any idea of what they're talking about. The skin of a horse (most of the leather) is a completely different layer than shell (like thick sheets of paper laid on top of each other). You can't cut a shoe pattern to "include" more/less shell versus the standard leather. They simply are not processed together. The requirements are different and the thickness would be tremendous (unusable for sneakers for sure).

Until I see the uncut, tanned/dyed hide that they use as a pattern, this simply does NOT make any manufacturing sense and any other person on here that works with leather hides should agree.

Yeah, I disn't quite get it but I'm not a leatherworker so all this is me trying to figure out what Esde meant. That being said, one of the commentators is a pretty good leatherworker and he didn't seem to question the skin vs muscle/membrane issue too much.

Out of curiosity, does that mean most shell goes to waste since only a few tanneries actually process the stuff?

[RonnySchroeder]

Hey Guys,

I m Ronny the maker of ESDE, thank you for taking attention to my work. I try to explain what i use. My english is really bad - sorry for that. I buy the complete horsebutt really unfinished directly from the tannery. (this comes from Italy) its not only the shell parts, because my patterns are - as you see to big for only the shell. So actually its the shell but with the outer parts, i will make later a picture and try to get it in here. Hopefully. Than you will see its the whole back part of the horse. If you could touch the bag you will feel the difference about the shell part and the normal leather around the shell.

But you guys are right, i searched a lot about the word and meaning of cordovan, and i think i will not use this anymore - its a bit confusing. Just beautiful Horsebutt.

[Chinorlz]

Hey Guys,

I m Ronny the maker of ESDE, thank you for taking attention to my work. I try to explain what i use. My english is really bad - sorry for that. I buy the complete horsebutt really unfinished directly from the tannery. (this comes from Italy) its not only the shell parts, because my patterns are - as you see to big for only the shell. So actually its the shell but with the outer parts, i will make later a picture and try to get it in here. Hopefully. Than you will see its the whole back part of the horse. If you could touch the bag you will feel the difference about the shell part and the normal leather around the shell.

But you guys are right, i searched a lot about the word and meaning of cordovan, and i think i will not use this anymore - its a bit confusing. Just beautiful Horsebutt.

Welcome Ronny! A pleasure having you in the conversation. Really nice to get the details from you here regarding the leather. It connects with Lohikaarme's question of tanneries just keeping the shell together with the horse butt and from what you say it sounds like at least some do. Indeed I do not know if the high cost of shell cordovan comes mainly from the material itself or the processing.

Nice to see your work as well. The conversation strayed off the path and got deeper into the leather, but your work is quite beautiful and precise!

[magic]

Personal favourite of Cyclops since first saw it on runway and finally got them on hand

Big thanks to Graham from CALCULUS for the fantastic service!

[nicelynice]

I sent an email inquiry to Horween after the discussion in this thread -- got an amazing response from Nick Horween. This should clear it up and the picture makes it quite clear. On a side note, this kind of detailed response to a non-sales inquiry is fantastic, makes me want to support Horween products.

----

Q:

Is the shell on a completely different "layer" than the rest of the hide, or is it part of the "surface" hide that is cut and processed differently?

For example, if a larger hide of the hindquarters of the horse is used, is it possible that a portion of that hide is typically what is referred to as shell?

A:

Alex,

The shell is a dense, fibrous layer contained within the hide. We expose this layer after tanning and then trim and process the shell specifically once we know where it is and how large it is.

Each horsehide has different sized shells and large hides don’t always yield large shells (though generally they do). During the initially quality check and trim (with the hair still on the hide) we cut well above where the shells end in order to not cut away any of the shells themselves.

This picture may help - https://www.instagram.com/p/BISpKn0j...horweenleather

The dark layer is the shell which is exposed by removing all of the flesh (suede) from the inside of the hide.

Best Regards,
Nick Horween