Money too tight to mention

[Alesha]

Собрались как бабки на скамейке хаха.

Sometimes I start thinking:

Ну все нах*й...

But than I understand that I do care!

Please do.

As soon as I get my babki from them!

[Alesha]

well the speed with which its recycled has increased, i won't argue with that. but if you take any point in time during the past 500 years, they were re-hashing something several pre-dating elements, which gained some new aspects through being stylised at a later date. take, for instance, fortuny & gallenga's obsession with medieval tabards, poiret re-cutting silk dresses from the 1700's ...late 1910's womenswear directly echoing early 1800's military uniforms.... early 1800's neoclassical revival.. repeated again in the first decade of the 1900's.. wartime-shortage slim suit of the WWI era being rehashed in the early 60's and brought back again in nearly same form by Slimane for his dior homme.. etc etc etc....we've always cannibalised our past, be it in western culture or the orient..

I believe that human raceis on the edge of something radically new. But too scared to take that step, instead reiterating the past over and over in attempt to stabilise in solid moment forever. This could be why consumer society is going global. No more diversity. No more new ideas.

i know what you mean about the term 'designer' - it feels dirty somehow, and lately same kind of sentiment is attached to people who regard themselves 'artists'..maybe because the terms feel like puns on their original meaning of late. all that said though, there are quite a few people out there who view 'success' in creating garments as the ability to continue doing so whilst staying true to themselves. i know i've already mentioned this earlier in the thread, but people like amadei do show that although a coherent, singular aesthetic can be assembled from their work by an able buyer through careful choice of individual pieces executed in various materials, the broader body of work can be interpreted & curated in different ways by different people, and is ultimately some guy having a good time making stuff & experimenting with ideas. it doesn't look like much of a concession to anyone. although i realise such cases are exceptions to the rule, there appears to be enough of them in existence out there, just as there exist enough people to keep them going in the immediate future.

It became an excuse. Both world artist and designer. Take a look at how creative process is made nowadays:

You need to make something cool so we can make profitz.

This is how its done.

No one is let into the GAME if he doesn't want to Play.

[galia]

No one is let into the GAME if he doesn't want to Play.

I couldn't agree more. this current has also hijacked any possibility to think about the nature of art and has short circuited almost the whole aestetic sub-branch of philosophy (since art is what hangs in galleries, that is the basic definition and it doesn't mean shit philosophaically speaking, it's just a cop-out of a very complex subject, especially in a society where culture has replaces religion... sorry, going off tracks here)

to answer your earlier question, I wear a lot of black, except in the summer, beause I am very pale and it suits me. I wear it because I am a parisian, and therefore was raised in the cult of subdued elegance and the little black dress, added to the fact that I used to be a goth "lite". I think the choice of colour stems from a long cultural tradition that has gradually decided that it was the best default choice in most circumstances, added to the fact that most humans are lazy and black goes with everything (or so they think). I don't know how it is where you guys live but in paris the colour black is incredibly prevalent, even in "mainstream" styles

[Avantster]

Good thread guys.

If I may continue on the fashion vs style argument. Fashion implies popularity or widespread acceptance of manners, customs, dress, etc. Fashion is that which characterizes or distinguishes the habits, manners, dress, etc., of a period or group. It is a social pattern of values.

Style is the way in which something is said, done, expressed, or performed. It is an intellectual pattern of values.

However let's keep in mind, fashion is not just the static achievements of the masters of the past. Fashion is the creative Dynamic Quality of the creator of the present.

When Gaultier took ideas from the street in the 80s and thrust them into upper Parisian society, it was a Dynamic injection into the static social patterns of fashion. Fast forward to today, where designers freely take elements from the street and put them on the runway. There are also countless 'street style' magazines and blogs. This once Dynamic Quality is now sustained as a static social pattern. This is not necessarily a bad thing. But for change to occur, there needs to be people who create things irregardless of these static social patterns. And this is why, I believe, we look at the Poell's and Altieri's of today.

[Faust]

Interesting discussion, thanks everyone. A few points I would like to make.

Alesha, I know you are a marketer, and you think like one, but I find it quite disrespectful that you write off people who think of fashion in terms other than exclusivity and market. I wholeheartedly agree with Merz that the CORE of these forums are people and discussions about creativity and meaning of fashion. The rest comes after.

Veblen is all good and fun, but he strikes me exactly as one of those people you describe who was never able to enjoy life and instead wrote his bitter, unsubstantiated book.

This is why people in WAYWT rarely dare to wear anything but SZ sanctioned brands, couse if they do, they will not be recieved equally well and they won't get ton of "I want to cop high tops like that too!"

Not true. Case in point, muuma, monadahl, fuuma, etc.

Yes creating aesthetic appeal of note twice by same person is dificult. But hey CCP managed to get close to variety. While Horikawa, Owens, what have you, etc just stamp same old thing over and over, the only real difference being odd new item here and there. In very much same way as Cavalli, Dolce and Gabanna, Gucci.

What is wrong with creating an aesthetic that reflects your personal views on the world? Ann does, Yohji does it, Rick does it, and so do others - for them it's a spiritual connection. Why should they jump from theme to theme each collection? Do writers change their styles from one book to the next?

I can understand your frustration. I can't afford any of it either. But. You need to understand that for a new designer who's just starting to build his business it is nigh impossible to charge half the price of established brands and manage to be on par with quality of fabrics and construction.

The reason for it is very simple and very unfair - no one gives a shit about new designers. When you order fabrics they're going to ignore you 'cause you can't order 1000s of meters. And you can't because no ones knows you yet and you don't have a turnover to justify this kind of purchasing. And if someone will sell to you, they will sell it to you for much more then they will sell to a major brand. Then there are the manufacturers who will not take on your production because the volume isn't big enough. And those who will will for the most part be unreliable, or not up to a standard, or will charge you an arm and a leg. And then there are the shops, which are reluctant to make sizable buys because "no one knows who the fuck they are" and they're not willing to take the risk, but they are willing to multiply the price on your things in line with other brands to make themselves some profit.

So, to sum up, if you are an up-and-coming designer everyone is against you. It is vastly cheaper for a major brand to produce, manufacture and sell then it is for you. So tell me why one expects them to drop their price?

And that brings me to

Funny how people think that it is ok to buy (for example) RO tee for £100, that costs (for example) £12 to produce, but decide that buying a tee from DD for the same £100 is too much, even thought it costed him about £25 to produce. Way to support the upcoming talent. I mean, you like the tee, you buy the tee, period. Otherwise it's just an "omg-I-spent-£xx-on-this-thing-no-one-knows-about-so-it's-money-wasted" kind of logic, which is more suitable to Gucci crowd, rather than people that hang around here.

I disagree with this as well. Stephan Schneider has been successfully doing excellent quality clothes on a small scale at decent prices for years now. The fact that designer has an established reputation is EXACTLY why they can charge what they charge. I think comparison with the art market is apt here.

As it happens, hopefully designer is not forced. Designer has a vision, therefore has a certain aesthetic, therefore he keeps creating things that go along with his vision. Now, forcing himself to design differently will mean losing that initial idea and more often than not, produce some shitty stuff.

So, I guess the challenge is to strike the right balance between reinventing itself with each season without abandoning the thing that made you appealing in the first place.

***

Also, designers are not about style. Style is personal. Ideally, it's also unique to each one of us. But designers produce for people, not solely for themselves.

I hope Raf is not reading this. It would break his heart.

You're always going to have sheeplike followers, however elitist the context. It's like with music, even for the most experimental and challenging music, you will have some who genuinely enjoy it and some who pretend to enjoy and understant it in order to feel validated and accepted by those who genuinely do. The same thing happens in fashion and there's nothing you can do to avoid it. That's also how obscure and independant subgenres in any realm of expression become mainstream and accused to "sell out".

But there are also those who come to this forum to find themselves, to come into contact with something they were searching for but never encountered before. Let's not discount these people, and let's not call them sheep. I think that one of the best things about SZ is the wealth of information about certain designers that cannot be found elsewhere. Everyone has to start somewhere. I remember walking into Barneys for the first time, and into IF, and wanting to throw out my entire closet after seeing stuff by Ann and Raf. I had that "this is me" moment, the same way Wim Wenders did when he first tried on Yohji Yamamoto's clothes, as described in Notebooks on Cities and Clothes.

This brings me to second existantial question: WHY BLACK?

I don't mind you using SZ for marketing purposes, others do and don't post anything. But, please don't make it this obvious

[Faust]

Good thread guys.

If I may continue on the fashion vs style argument. Fashion implies popularity or widespread acceptance of manners, customs, dress, etc. Fashion is that which characterizes or distinguishes the habits, manners, dress, etc., of a period or group. It is a social pattern of values.

Style is the way in which something is said, done, expressed, or performed. It is an intellectual pattern of values.

However let's keep in mind, fashion is not just the static achievements of the masters of the past. Fashion is the creative Dynamic Quality of the creator of the present.

When Gaultier took ideas from the street in the 80s and thrust them into upper Parisian society, it was a Dynamic injection into the static social patterns of fashion. Fast forward to today, where designers freely take elements from the street and put them on the runway. There are also countless 'street style' magazines and blogs. This once Dynamic Quality is now sustained as a static social pattern. This is not necessarily a bad thing. But for change to occur, there needs to be people who create things irregardless of these static social patterns. And this is why, I believe, we look at the Poell's and Altieri's of today.

Avantster dropping some MOQ wisdom

[galia]

But there are also those who come to this forum to find themselves, to come into contact with something they were searching for but never encountered before. Let's not discount these people, and let's not call them sheep. I think that one of the best things about SZ is the wealth of information about certain designers that cannot be found elsewhere. Everyone has to start somewhere. I remember walking into Barneys for the first time, and into IF, and wanting to throw out my entire closet after seeing stuff by Ann and Raf. I had that "this is me" moment, the same way Wim Wenders did when he first tried on Yohji Yamamoto's clothes, as described in Notebooks on Cities and Clothes.

Oh I totally agree, especially since I'm one of them. But you can't deny that there are some people who are the way I described. I used to be very into the music scene, and they were like a plague for all good conversation. I guess what I'm talking about basically is hype, and you will find the dynamics of hype even in the experimental realm, it's just going to be less visible

[Faust]

Well, that's everywhere and you cannot control it. You can only choose to participate in hype or not.

[Galois]

But there are also those who come to this forum to find themselves, to come into contact with something they were searching for but never encountered before. Let's not discount these people, and let's not call them sheep. I think that one of the best things about SZ is the wealth of information about certain designers that cannot be found elsewhere. Everyone has to start somewhere. I remember walking into Barneys for the first time, and into IF, and wanting to throw out my entire closet after seeing stuff by Ann and Raf. I had that "this is me" moment, the same way Wim Wenders did when he first tried on Yohji Yamamoto's clothes, as described in Notebooks on Cities and Clothes.

I guess my first post on SZ is most appropriate responding to this. I somehow found my way to this site, saw the 'What are you wearing today?' thread, looked through it for a few pages, and then wanted to throw away my whole closet (I saw a Julius leather jacket...).

[Faust]

Good. Polish your credit cards :-)

[Nikov]

I guess my first post on SZ is most appropriate responding to this. I somehow found my way to this site, saw the 'What are you wearing today?' thread, looked through it for a few pages, and then wanted to throw away my whole closet (I saw a Julius leather jacket...).

Interesting... which jacket/fit was it?

[Galois]

Interesting... which jacket/fit was it?

Not sure. Since then I've seen some other stuff on here that has changed the way I see things, but that leather was a real wake up call.

Good. Polish your credit cards :-)

=X

[fenrost]

I guess my first post on SZ is most appropriate responding to this. I somehow found my way to this site, saw the 'What are you wearing today?' thread, looked through it for a few pages, and then wanted to throw away my whole closet (I saw a Julius leather jacket...).

that's what i did. after stumbling sz

[laughed]

Yeah, money is tight these days. Starting to buy stuff from Theory and Elie Tahari. Yeah, I never thought I would go there but I am actually liking some of the stuff...which gets me to my question - anyone recommend any labels like this, sort of a little cheaper. ?

[Faust]

I think it's quite ironic that you say this, because Theory is basically ridiculously overpriced Banana Republic.

I don't think that substitutes are that hard to find - everyone and their mother is knocking Rick off these days. However, think about what you are asking. A lot of these designers are championed here BECAUSE they are who they are and they do what they do. Not that I am asking you to buy a $300 tee ;-)