Randomness

[Fade to Black]

the further this discussion goes, the more this is entering the realm of farce.

i love how people selectively pick passages or certain keywords from my posts to directly attack instead of addressing the whole argument. I never thought SZ was the place where people opted for the easy way out, but you guys let me down on this one.

droogist says I consider Bill O'Reilly my 'hero' yet missed the part where I said I don't agree with his views or the way he delivers his message. And the fact is, I DON'T. Bill O'Reilly is an asshole, I would not argue this. What I respect him for is the way he ploughs on in spite of the endless attacks he receives. If it were a democrat-slanted journalist doing this, you guys would all be praising him for his dedication to 'the good fight,' which is probably how most O'Reilly supporters (people who ACTUALLY agree with what he says) are thinking.

And look at what you guys write in relation to O'Reilly, the tone of judgment you carry. If you think about it, and ignore my presence for a second, just think about what you said about O'Reilly and the countless grievances he has done on the field of journalism. Yet the people keeping him in business, making room for him to do what he does day in day out while intensifying his brashness and arrogance are not the people who agree with or empathize with him. It's people like you. Think about it.

But i'm sure you guys will once again pick out selective parts of what I said above to attack and nitpick on rather than try to understand what I am saying regardless of your ideological beliefs. So much for intelligent and thoughtful debate...

[Fade to Black]

Hitler lost the war and ended up chewing on cyanide pills in his bunker, so that's not quite right either.

Again, a gross misinterpretation of what I was trying to say. People really do get lost in the details rather than trying to see the bigger picture.

In response to your point, yes I see that quite clearly. If he managed to execute his movement to its completion, it is unlikely I would be here today typing this out.

In the context of his actual life spent as a leader, he managed to mobilize enough people to carry out his plans for a world molded in his own sick vision, and while thankfully he ultimately lost, he did enough damage that it remains a significant impact on our psyche. He got the ball rolling, so to speak, and that is a lot farther than what most people who have such ambitions achieve.

[droogist]

the further this discussion goes, the more this is entering the realm of farce.

i love how people selectively pick passages or certain keywords from my posts to directly attack instead of addressing the whole argument. I never thought SZ was the place where people opted for the easy way out, but you guys let me down on this one.

Nitpick? I think your entire argument founders on exactly the points I selected. You explicitly wrote that phenomena like Bill O'Reilly's success renders journalistic integrity moot. I think that's nonsense, and wrote as much. You seem to think that a few pundits playing fast and loose with the truth makes the truth irrelevant to journalism, when the fact is that it's possible to argue an opinion without resorting to lies. Which is what a responsible journalist does.

droogist says I consider Bill O'Reilly my 'hero' yet missed the part where I said I don't agree with his views or the way he delivers his message. And the fact is, I DON'T. Bill O'Reilly is an asshole, I would not argue this. What I respect him for is the way he ploughs on in spite of the endless attacks he receives. If it were a democrat-slanted journalist doing this, you guys would all be praising him for his dedication to 'the good fight,' which is probably how most O'Reilly supporters (people who ACTUALLY agree with what he says) are thinking.

You presume too much. Keith Olbermann does essentially this, or comes close to it, and I don't think anyone here would jump to his defense.

As for O'Reilly being your hero, maybe he's not, but the way you went on about how much you admire him didn't make it much of a stretch.

And look at what you guys write in relation to O'Reilly, the tone of judgment you carry. If you think about it, and ignore my presence for a second, just think about what you said about O'Reilly and the countless grievances he has done on the field of journalism. Yet the people keeping him in business, making room for him to do what he does day in day out, are not the people who agree with or empathize with him. It's people like you. Think about it.

I'm thinking about it, and it still doesn't make any sense. If he didn't have an audience, he wouldn't be in business. We're not his audience.

[droogist]

Again, a gross misinterpretation of what I was trying to say. People really do get lost in the details rather than trying to see the bigger picture.

In response to your point, yes I see that quite clearly. If he managed to execute his movement to its completion, it is unlikely I would be here today typing this out.

In the context of his actual life spent as a leader, he managed to mobilize enough people to carry out his plans for a world molded in his own sick vision, and while thankfully he ultimately lost, he did enough damage that it remains a significant impact on our psyche. He got the ball rolling, so to speak, and that is a lot farther than what most people who have such ambitions achieve.

Well, duh. And frankly, I think I was pointing out the big picture.

[Fade to Black]

This discussion can theoretically go on forever and pointlessly, as any discussion on this type of sensitive issue usually does.

I'll just stop here and agree to disagree with you all. I've spelt out my point as clearly as I possibly can and need to, you are free to make whatever you will out of it. I will keep my mouth shut on these subjects from now on, and stick to the clothing/music/movie/book talk.

[theetruscan]

The whole idea of adhering to some set of 'code' or 'standards' is obviously moot, considering that since O'Reilly has violated that whole system, yet is still out there speaking. Civility is just a front that shrouds 'honesty.' By honesty, I don't mean what is actually 'honest' since everyone has a different definition of that - I mean saying what you really believe and not holding back.

This is so off base it hurts me. Firstly, love him, hate him, respect him or detest him, O'Reilly is not a journalist. He's a pundit. We know that, he knows that, I'm not sure how you miss that.

Journalism is about finding facts, presenting them, and finding people qualified to interpret them. Journalists, and investigative journalists, rely in their ability to track down people/documents/information and expose things the public wouldn't otherwise see. Punditry is finding ways to slam home your ideology. Because you ignore, or disregard, this difference, you make arguments that everyone else finds silly. It's not, in my case at least, that you think O'Reilly is impressive that is causing problems, it's that you think he's a journalist.

I never thought SZ was the place where people opted for the easy way out, but you guys let me down on this one.

If it were a democrat-slanted journalist doing this, you guys would all be praising him for his dedication to 'the good fight,' which is probably how most O'Reilly supporters (people who ACTUALLY agree with what he says) are thinking.

There is a democratically slanted pundit doing something similar to O'Reilly, but he does a much better job of getting his facts right. I can't imagine that I would waste my time acknowledging some drooling moron getting all the facts wrong then agreeing with me anyway. I don't watch him though, because I generally dislike punditry, but I do find it hard to lump them together because Olberman is so much more careful with facts. That being said, I can certainly see how the two of them can be characterised similarly. The fact that neither Olberman or O'Reilly are journalists is the important point here. Oh, and please don't pull that "you're taking the easy way out" bullshit on me, I made a point of addressing what you wrote, not creating some kind of O'Reillyesque strawman argument based off a few cherrypicked passage.

Nitpick? I think your entire argument founders on exactly the points I selected. You explicitly wrote that phenomena like Bill O'Reilly's success renders journalistic integrity moot. I think that's nonsense, and wrote as much. You seem to think that a few pundits playing fast and loose with the truth makes the truth irrelevant to journalism, when the fact is that it's possible to argue an opinion without resorting to lies. Which is what a responsible journalist does.

I think this gets to the heart of the problem I have with Fade's arguments. He seems to be either unaware of, or indifferent to, the difference between journalism and punditry. Seymour Hersh is a journalist. He consistently tracks down things that we couldn't find out on our own, and presents them. He finds people willing to part with with information and presents it to us. This is journalism. There are plenty of other journalists, I am not singling Hersh out as the only one or anything like that. You should never make the mistake of calling a pundit a journalist. They do different things, and have different goals and roles. An example of Hersh's writing can be found here.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/07/07/080707fa_fact_hersh

EDIT: I'm not trying to pick on you Matt, but I think what you're missing is a pretty common thing these days. It really contributes in a big way to the degradation of discussion. Being able to keep punditry and journalism separate lets us be much clearer about what we're hearing/seeing.

[Faust]

I have nothing to add to what droogist and theetruscan said, but Matt, please don't equate me to O'Reilly!!!

[swami]

why do people always make those two options seem mutually-exclusive?

Duly noted...
Unfortunately in this case it was..But turns out doing the right thing even at great cost to me was the only choice..

[Fade to Black]

right now is the first time it's hit me that i am completely exhausted...have had trouble sleeping, my mind is always coming up with these ideas and solutions, but i don't have a stable work environment/platform for me to develop them. Damn...I'm really fuckin lost.

even the few bits of writing that can still provide a temporary source of some income i have not been able to put down a single word, because i'm so preoccupied with trying to find something more practical in the long run. So that's the funny thing...technical writing is giving me writer's block, whereas if someone told me to write something like a marketing plan i would probably be able to have an easier time. Or even all that bullshit metaphysical stuff i preach on here and facebook, those essays which go up to pages take me hardly any time or thought, but i can't write a goddamn company profile.

[Chinorlz]

a fellow bboy crew member called me to let me know that at breaking practice in NY on saturday, another bboy came up to him and asked him, "hey... didn't I see a picture of you up on the Cycle-Two blog?"

super random connection!

[theetruscan]

Sigh. Fell down a flight of stairs landed on my laptop. So much for shopping sales this season, time to buy a new laptop.

[DHC]

Sigh. Fell down a flight of stairs landed on my laptop. So much for shopping sales this season, time to buy a new laptop.

ouch and ouch! Hope you're okay. Laptops aren't the best fall breakers.

[theetruscan]

ouch and ouch! Hope you're okay. Laptops aren't the best fall breakers.

I'm fine. Some bruises, mostly wounded pride. And, I dunno, if you saw my laptop before my very grumpy tech guys took it away to dig out the hard drive . . . it clearly absorbed a LOT of force.

[kira]

Cold Weather = Bourbon = Yummy= Bourbon Buzz= Barnes and Noble Bookstore= Dante's The Divine Comedy to reread and Tango: The Art History of Love

I think that my winter past time is going to be drinking Bourbon and going to the bookstore. I had the best time walking around by myself reading titles of books, while completely buzzed.

[kira]

Sigh. Fell down a flight of stairs landed on my laptop. So much for shopping sales this season, time to buy a new laptop.

So sorry this happened My computer has become my livelihood, so I understand your pain.

Do you have renters or homeowners insurance? You can claim your computer replacement on that...