NBA Playoffs.

[Addicted]

Can't wait til the Celtics win the championship on the Lakers floor.

that's a nice fantasy, too bad it won't be happening

[laughed]

If Kobe was on another planet than the rest of the NBA he would have more rings. He wouldn't have lost in the NBA finals - like Jordan.
Jordan was on another level...Kobe nah.
Phil Jackson and his teammates have talked about how hard he is to coach and how hard it is to be his teammate because if his attitude. He's a B. He's lucky Derek Fisher won the game for him the other night, because he didn't show up = at all. He didn't show up last game either. Players on another level don't airball game winning threes - again, VERY lucky Ron Artest was there to clean up his mess. But leave it to Kobe to act like it was supposed to happen that way - " I knew Ron was gonna be cutting to the basket.." Really Kobe? Really? So you airballed on purpose?
Youre either a Kobe or Lebron guy so thats another argument but if The King had the team that Kobe his, he would for sure lead them to a championship. The Lakers are stacked - they win because of the team, Kobe is a great player - but he's not on another planet. There are a lot of great leaders. Heck, I'd take Tim Duncan in his prime over Kobe any day. He doesn't get the love Kobe gets because he's not a loudmouth. Anyway, I wish Perkins would just take Kobe out and end his career.

I do agree about the KG thing. Speaking of not showing up. Man, he hasn't done jack besides that first quarter action every night. What a show. Hitting his head on the goal, cursing every 10 seconds to himself.
Anything is possssiiibbbllleeee!!!!

[MaxM]

LeBron ain't got shit on Kobe. Individually Kobe is better than any other player, and you can't say he doesn't have the right attitude or that he's not clutch, he hit like 10 buzzer beaters this year.
And he can step up his game when his team needs to, just like Jordan.
Btw don't forget Jordan had a good team with him too, he didn't win the championships all by himself.
I just think Kobe plays very intelligently, compared to LeBron that just bulldozes everybody out of his way or shoots threes. Kobe has long range, can shoot from midrange as well as is very good at driving to the basket. Being less selfish than he was before just makes him one of the best players in the NBA for his team.

Oh and speaking of attitude: Kobe is beginning to have the same attitude Jordan has had, being very demanding for him and his teammates, trying to get the best out of everybodys talent.
He may have even more skills than Mike, his fundamentals are just insane and he is relying less and less on his athletic abilities, something Mike didn't do at Kobe's age

[todestrieb]

He may have even more skills than Mike, his fundamentals are just insane and he is relying less and less on his athletic abilities, something Mike didn't do at Kobe's age

At the risk of yet another Bryant vs. Jordan debate on the interwebz *groan* *moan*, let me just say this: while they may be comparable offensively (and that's still debatable, at least to me), Mike was a much better and sound defensive player than KB. No contest there. Plus, on pure offensive talent alone, I doubt KB could do something like:



In my mind there's only one other guard in history comparable to Mike, and that's Magic. Watching Magic or Jordan in their prime was pure orgasmic basketball. Jizz-worthy with champagne for afters.

[MaxM]

Well the vid is not pure talent, but pure athleticism. Kobe may not be able to do that (not even sure), but i seriously doubt Mike would have made half the buzzer beaters Kobe had this season...
Kobes moves are much more refined than Mikes, he uses his intelligence, understanding of the game and his skills to score, he doesnt rely on athleticism or driving to the basket like Mike did for so long.
Thus they are not comparable offensively imo, Kobe being a better all around player on the offensive end.
And well you gotta take the era into account. At Jordan's era, there were a lot less offensively talented guys than now. And Jordan had Pippen as the other stopper of the team so...

You probably seen this, but i think this says enough (not saying Kobe would have stopped him tho)


Agreed on the will of Mike and his attitude and mental strength, that's how he won as many title.

[MaxM]

I don't mean to start a debate here, it's just that despite Kobe's arrogance and all, you gotta stop hating and admit that his game is just a dream to watch.

[hamham3002]

todestrieb:
That jordan move, i think, is absolutely unnecessary.
Look at how the defender are reacting, they had their hands up, took a small hop, not really going for the ball and giving up one MJ got in the air.
Jordan switched from right to left mid-air, but was totally not necessary to get that basket. He could have easily just dunked it. Or just lay it up. He was not threaten by the defender, the instant he got in the air, why switch hands?
To be honest, I do think Kobe can do that. He has the hangtime, and the soft touch.

MJ was THE midrange fadeaway assassin. (I watched the 98 finals, I was 11, so thats all i remember)

Laughed:
I read an article, MJ is JUST AS tough to be a teammate and JUST AS tough to coach. I forgot who it was written by, but from that article, the author stated MJ was so hard on his teammates, that although u see him winning on the court, he doesn't have a close bond/relationship with his teammates, since hes such a competitor.
Your right tho, Kobe isn't showing up much in the forth quarter.

I really have a love hate relationship w/ the Lakers right now. I want them to win, but I really don't think they deserve it.
They rely on Kobe SOOO much. If you look at the forth quarter, I can't keep track of how many times, the lakers swing the ball until it gets to kobe. By that time, already 14 seconds went by off the shot clock. (I guess credit goes to the C's ?)
Also, kobe takes so many tough shots, sometimes it just makes you think. Yes, he has the ability to make the tough shots. Thats why hes kobe. But doesn't mean he has to take them a lot of times. (not counting the ones when the shot clock is down) If they go in, great. All is good. But when they don't, its just a bad shot even if it was from Kobe.

Thoughts?

[hamham3002]

Well the vid is not pure talent, but pure athleticism. Kobe may not be able to do that (not even sure), but i seriously doubt Mike would have made half the buzzer beaters Kobe had this season...
Kobes moves are much more refined than Mikes, he uses his intelligence, understanding of the game and his skills to score, he doesnt rely on athleticism or driving to the basket like Mike did for so long.
Thus they are not comparable offensively imo, Kobe being a better all around player on the offensive end.
And well you gotta take the era into account. At Jordan's era, there were a lot less offensively talented guys than now. And Jordan had Pippen as the other stopper of the team so...

You probably seen this, but i think this says enough (not saying Kobe would have stopped him tho)

Agreed on the will of Mike and his attitude and mental strength, that's how he won as many title.

I haven't watch enough of MJ's prime, but I think the thing that Kobe is better than MJ at, is his footwork and ability to sell the fakes. His footwork is tremendous for a guard (eg. his way of creating space when the D is tight)
Dun think MJ has that much athleticism at 35 during his final champ in 1998.

[MaxM]

MJ wasn't hard to coach, he was basically the alter ego of the coach on the field (i think). He was hard on his teammates, but that was just to get the best out of them and for the team.
Kobe on the other hand has long been obsessed by his stats and competing with shaq.
Now that Shaq's gone he has reached another level, making better decisions, taking the team on his shoulders when he needs to, and i think Kobe really shows up for moneytime and steps his game up. He might have airballed the last one to Ron, but if you look at this season, his fourth quarters in close games are unbelievable.

[MaxM]

I haven't watch enough of MJ's prime, but I think the thing that Kobe is better than MJ at, is his footwork and ability to sell the fakes. His footwork is tremendous for a guard (eg. his way of creating space when the D is tight)
Dun think MJ has that much athleticism at 35 during his final champ in 1998.

Yea his fundamentals are better as i said, in a thriple threat position Kobe just has the defender at his mercy.
His reverse pivot makes me go all crazy. Pulling this off in a real game situation is just .


Watch n learn


Btw Kobe's 30+ too by now.

[laughed]

Come on guy. Kobe's fourth quarters unbelievable, a dream to watch, etc. Where has he been this series and last? Nowhere to be found. Playoffs. That's what counts. Period.
As stated above, his defense is lacking. Cannot be compared to MJs.
Look, Kobe can NEVER compare to MJ because MJ NEVER LOST A FINALS. Period. End of discussion. MJ was the most dominant player of his time period hands down. Meaning there was no argument. To say that MJ faced teams that were lesser than teams now is pretty ignorant. Are we forgetting about the Lakers, the Pistons, the Jazz, the Knicks, the Pacers, the Suns, etc. Take a look at the players on the original Dream Team, the greatest team ever assembled. The teams thrown together after that were getting beat! They didn't even bring home medals in some cases.
The bottom line is - how can Kobe be compared to MJ when he's not even the greatest Laker of all-time? He's not even in the top 3!!!
Ray Allen shredded Kobe's weak defense, i mean SHREDDED his defense in Kobe's House! I think he did the same thing 2 years ago, in what I can say is the most dominant performance from any time I have ever seen in an NBA finals. Who was the MVP of the finals that year? Paul Pierce. Not Kobe. Shouldn't the greatest player of all-time or of even our era be the finals mvp? Final score in Game 6? Boston 131, Lakers 92. This is the largest victory in a game clenching finals EVER. EVER. And Kobe is on the losing end. BTW, Kobe finished with a laughable 22 and Ray Allen torched Kobe yet again for a then NBA leading 7 THREES! (out of only 9 attempts) let's not even bring up Kobe's accuracy (7-22) pffff. There is no discussion. Jordan...easily. I cant even entertain further examples as it is really is pointless as Kobe isn't even the greatest Laker. Is it just my imagination or did Kobe's Lakers get STOMPED in the 2004 Finals by the Pistons? Where's Kobe been not just in the 4th quarters his last finals but uhhh, how about the LAST 10 years?! Oh, that's right, Tim Duncan was busy getting his rings, being the most dominant player in the game. The Spurs are the best team of the last 5 years, not the Lakers. Tim Duncan has lead his team, not Kobe.
Celtics all day. The facts speak for themselves. It's just that simple. And now that Kobe has another ring it's against who? The Magic? Child Please. Weak. It's about time Kobe got his "Sympathy MVP"....what took so long? And the Finals MVP on those championship teams that won the finals in the late 90s was who? Not Kobe. Shaq, every year. The two greatest shooting performances from long distance in NBA Finals history have come with Kobe on the losing end.---Even Ray couldn't believe he was annihilating Kobe yet again.

[zamb]

Come on guy. Kobe's fourth quarters unbelievable, a dream to watch, etc. Where has he been this series and last? Nowhere to be found. Playoffs. That's what counts. Period.
As stated above, his defense is lacking. Cannot be compared to MJs.
Look, Kobe can NEVER compare to MJ because MJ NEVER LOST A FINALS. Period. End of discussion. MJ was the most dominant player of his time period hands down. Meaning there was no argument. To say that MJ faced teams that were lesser than teams now is pretty ignorant. Are we forgetting about the Lakers, the Pistons, the Jazz, the Knicks, the Pacers, the Suns, etc. Take a look at the players on the original Dream Team, the greatest team ever assembled. The teams thrown together after that were getting beat! They didn't even bring home medals in some cases.
The bottom line is - how can Kobe be compared to MJ when he's not even the greatest Laker of all-time? He's not even in the top 3!!!
Ray Allen shredded Kobe's weak defense, i mean SHREDDED his defense in Kobe's House! I think he did the same thing 2 years ago, in what I can say is the most dominant performance from any time I have ever seen in an NBA finals. Who was the MVP of the finals that year? Paul Pierce. Not Kobe. Shouldn't the greatest player of all-time or of even our era be the finals mvp? Final score in Game 6? Boston 131, Lakers 92. This is the largest victory in a game clenching finals EVER. EVER. And Kobe is on the losing end. BTW, Kobe finished with a laughable 22 and Ray Allen torched Kobe yet again for a then NBA leading 7 THREES! (out of only 9 attempts) let's not even bring up Kobe's accuracy (7-22) pffff. There is no discussion. Jordan...easily. I cant even entertain further examples as it is really is pointless as Kobe isn't even the greatest Laker. Is it just my imagination or did Kobe's Lakers get STOMPED in the 2004 Finals by the Pistons? Where's Kobe been not just in the 4th quarters his last finals but uhhh, how about the LAST 10 years?! Oh, that's right, Tim Duncan was busy getting his rings, being the most dominant player in the game. The Spurs are the best team of the last 5 years, not the Lakers. Tim Duncan has lead his team, not Kobe.
Celtics all day. The facts speak for themselves. It's just that simple. And now that Kobe has another ring it's against who? The Magic? Child Please. Weak. It's about time Kobe got his "Sympathy MVP"....what took so long? And the Finals MVP on those championship teams that won the finals in the late 90s was who? Not Kobe. Shaq, every year. The two greatest shooting performances from long distance in NBA Finals history have come with Kobe on the losing end.---Even Ray couldn't believe he was annihilating Kobe yet again.

It is rather interesting how people can spend their time skewing discussions and arguing about nonsensical things in order to win a debate..................

Lets get something clear here: IT IS ORGANIZATIONS AND TEAMS THAT WIN CHAMPIONSHIPS, NOT PLAYERS.
Micheal Jordan won six championships because the bulls were the best team of the 90's. not necessarily because he was the best player. Of course it is unquestionable that he was the best player of that generation, but the Six championships are not solely because of him. Kobe is a better Scorer than Jordan, but I dont know if he is necessarily a better player, the jury is still out on that one. Lebron is a better all round player than Kobe, because he does more, he is a better rebounder, passer and and a bigger/ stronger player which effectively makes him a better defender, but Kobe has a better team, a better Coach, and an organization that is committed to winning Championships.

There is no question in my mind, that since Jordan left the league, Duncan has been by far and away the best player in the game. So in a way I find these discussions really unnecessary because if you measure a players greatness by what his TEAM wins, then how do you factor in great players playing on Bad teams?
which is what LeBron has in Cleveland, Wade has in Miami, and Garnett had in Minnesota before he became a Celtic.

The five best Players in the league since Jordan retired IMO are
1. Tim Duncan
2 Shaquille O'neal
3. Chris Webber
4. Kevin Garnett
5. Kobe Bryant.

and they are ranked in the order i listed them. It should also be noted that four of the five are Forward/ Centers. The reason for this is that Forwards and Centers are by far more valuable to a teams success than guards are. GUARDS SELL TICKETS AND ATTRACT FANS, BUT FORWARDS AND CENTERS WIN CHAMPIONSHIPS.

We should also remember that Jordan won nothing without Pippen and Phil Jackson. Pippen it could be argued was probably the best two way player and perimeter defender of that era. and there is no question that outside of arguably Gregg Popovich, Jackson is the best Coach in the league.

Jordan had Dennis Rodman, one of, if not the greatest rebounder and front court defender ever. he also had Steve Kerr, the most efficient three point shooter the game has ever known, Horace Grant, Will Perdue etc.
As Good as Jordan was, the kind of accolades he get, at the expense of the rest of the team, case make him seem to a person not drinking the koolade...................quite overrated

If we are going to talk about greatest player, I would say Kareem has to be rated over Jordan

[hamham3002]

Laughed, your just hating.

Kobe didn't shop up in game 3?
29pts, 7reb, 4ast, 2 stl, 3 blocks. He took a charge on PP in the final minutes which was called a block (His feet were clearly above the lie, and got there before PP set his feet n jump). Why? shitty refs. Or else the game should have been done earlier. (Most likely)

Phoenix game where he air balled? Please look at the defenders. Look at the time left on the clock.
And were you saying he didn't show up in the western finals series? I think he averaged 33 points per game, 7 reb and 8 ast...

Kobe not greatest laker all time? Why does that matter when comparing MJ to Kobe (although most of us are avoiding)? Bulls was nothing for the longest time. Hence no one to compare.
Lakers has won 16 champs (12 excluding the ones with kobe playing), thats the reason why he's not all time greatest, cause there ARE other players to compare. And on the note where you say hes not even top 3? Thats all opinion. Jerry West said kobe was the greatest.

Spurs the greatest in the last 5 years? (Maybe from 2003-2007) but definately not from 2008-2010 when all of them got old n injured.

MJ win, because of him, AND HIS TEAM.
Are you forgetting Scottie, Rodman, Kerr, Tony, Longely? Scottie is the defence of the Bulls, Kerr and Tony were fucking huge down the stretch, CLUTCH. And longely can hit his open shots and had excellent position down low for O boards. Not to mention the only big man on this team during 98 season.

You seem to only talk about individual players and say how they win the games while forgetting there are teammates who affects the game, but basketball is a TEAM GAME. Win as a team, Lose as a team.

edit: Zamb knows his shit

[laughed]

Zamb, you quoted my post and stated something about Nonsensical?I was stating facts was a not? Hmmmm.....Facts sonny boy, can't argue with that. This isn't about winning an argument. There is no argument. If this has turned into Kobe VS MJ, just google greatest nba players of all-time and most will agree... that's all I'm saying.

Beyond that nonsensical comment which makes no sense I pretty much agree with most of what Zamb said. Chris Webber though, really? Okay Tyra. I'd toss a forgotten player with a crappy team - Dirk Nowitzki- in there somewhere.
btw, we all know that teams win championships but refs do too. How many people want to bet that this thing won't go 7 games?

and hamham-
I guess I am just hating because i hate when people say "youre just hating". Yeah, Im just hatin.
And no, Kobe didn't come out in Game 3. Why do you think everyone is saying "Kobe's gonna have a big game this series."? Because he hasn't had one yet. Nice numbers there huh? But typical of Kobe Lovers they fail to mention how he got those numbers - 10 for 29!!!?? Really? 1 for 7 from 3 land.?? Really? 4 assists! Wow.
Listen carefully -
In the ENTIRE 4th quarter Kobe made ONE, count it, ONE shot. He had a couple free throws but he made ONE shot. Leave that weak game at home son.
And "Phoenix game where he air balled? Please look at the defenders. Look at the time left on the clock. "
Okay, I did that.....he airballed.
"Kobe not greatest laker all time? Why does that matter when comparing MJ to Kobe (although most of us are avoiding)?"
Uh...because if you aren't the greatest Laker of all-time, you can't exactly be the greatest PLAYER of all-time. Hello?!
"Spurs the greatest in the last 5 years? (Maybe from 2003-2007) but definately not from 2008-2010 when all of them got old n injured."
Well they've won two in the last 5 years....so yeah, best of the last 5 years. Come on, simple math, get on my level. Facts.
I was stating facts. Period.

Michael Jordan was the greatest and LeBron will eventually take that from him (maybe). I think there is a difference between a dominant player and a great player because Shaq was pretty damn dominant but he pretty much sucks in some aspects. In other words, Shaq dominated the game during his championship years, much more than Kobe, but Kobe is the better baller for sure. I agree that Kareem is the greatest Laker of all-time, certainly above Kobe, but again, we're talking about dominant and great player. He wasn't the greatest shooter, didn't even shoot 75 percent from the foul line. He was great for sure, but anyway, I'm rooting for the Celtics, Im a huge Ray Allen fan and I have come around to like Rondo and even Doc Rivers. Paul Pierce is the man and a true Laker Killer.

[hamham3002]

Yes, he did go 10/29 in game 3, and 1/7 on 3 point line and have a weak 4th. But please define not showing up? Shouldn't it mean: 0-13, 2points,4 rebs, 2 ast in 42 mins. No hate on Rayray, but THATS not showing up

Please read over what i wrote. I was never arguing about Kobe being Player of all time. I wasn't even trying to argue anything about Kobe vs. MJ. The only thing I did say was Kobe's ability to sell fakes and his foot work was probably better than MJ.

You also said kobe was no where to be seen for the past 10 years cause timmy D was getting all the rings.
Guess Karl Malone was pretty weaksauce while MJ keeps on beating his team? Does that make karl malone NOT an all time great?

You said Spurs was the best team in the last 5 years.
Heres some facts as well: Spurs was beated by lakers in 2008 in 5, lost to Mavs in 09 first round, lost to Suns 4-0 this year. Won in 2007 again Cavs who had lebron, and only lebron. (I might as well call that WEAK also) To be the best team in the last 5 years, they must be strong every single year right?

I guess what I'm trying to say is, being dominant or an all time great, doesn't mean that person/team is having a big game every game/season. Kobe is definitely ONE of the all time great guards when his career ends.

(That team usa stuff from before didn't even matter too, competition has increased so much from those times)