International Ordering

[lowrey]

All EU countries have the same VAT. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_VAT_area

read again.

[beardown]

Thanks for the info, much appreciated. This all makes sense, but the current tracking info indicates that the package is currently in the USA and "The parcel is undergoing customs clearance." It seems that if this has already been done prior to importing it would not need to be cleared again upon arrival. I may need to look into this tomorrow morning.

Also, the fees are about 20% of the cost so it seems I was definitely hit at full value.

Yep, 20% is about how it goes. Sometimes if you have to pay the brokerage fee, it might hit around 25%.

OK....I think I know what's going on. The thing to keep in mind again is that these brokers work with both sides of customs: Export and Import. The package is ready to be delivered likely but they cannot do that until you've paid the fees. I think it's that simple. People use brokers so that it's quicker, easier and YOU end up paying the fee rather than them.

It used to be customary for items to be delivered internationally and then the shipper (UPS, FEDEX, DHL) would send you a bill afterward. And most people didn't know they would be responsible for duties and customs and taxes so I imagine a lot of people simply didn't pay them and the shipper would either have to try to collect or get stuck paying themselves.

Enter brokers. They organize and manage that aspect of shipping internationally (which can be very complicated if you do it exactly per terms) and they're not going to deliver it to you until all their fees owed are paid. I'm willing to be about 95% that it's the only fee you pay but check tomorrow morning to be sure.

To simplify all of this wordy explanation, if the retailer wasn't working with a broker, they would simply put it in a box, send it to you and you would get a 'duties/taxes due' notice at delivery after it passes through U.S. customs. It's an import fee. Since it sounds like they use a broker to simply/speed up, you pay that early so you don't have to pay it at time of delivery.

Broker gets fees, pays them to U.S. government, everyone is happy.

[lowrey]

I've never heard of brokers, but I know some couriers do this pre-arrival customs handling themselves, at least here in europe. Fedex for example sometimes sends paperwork before the parcel is in the country to speed up the delivery, offering to declare the shipment for a fee) Alternatively you can declare it through customs yourself and the courier releases/delivers it once they get clearance from customs.

I'm not sure if its exactly the same in the US (I've heard more about the annoying invoice after goods method beardown mentioned), but sounds like this is what DPD is doing here.

[beardown]

I could be wrong about the broker...I think larger companies that have a lot of international orders are more apt to use them. And it's likely more of an American thing. After a few exporting/importing laws changed, it became really tough to fill out custom's papers and deal with them.

I worked for a company that did a lot of exporting and there were endless delays about the most ridiculous details. We contacted a broker to manage it all so that shipments spent as little time in customs as possible and managed all of the duties/taxes/fees associated with it.

If you send something overseas via UPS and don't fill out the forms correctly, they have brokers that they use to straighten it out and then they can charge that fee to recipient. That's strictly for commercial shipping as far as I know.

[widmerpool]

You shouldn't be getting a VAT refund at all. Vat refunds are for when you buy in the EU and take the stuff out with you. It is less than the full amount because you get charged an administrative fee by the company that handles the refunds.

When you purchase something online from in the EU they should simply not charge the VAT, which does not apply to export sales, and you should save the full amount.

[beardown]

When I mentioned a VAT refund, I was talking about reimbursement directly from the store after the purchase. Online stores for many shops are still fairly primitive in some respects of e-commerce and most seem to be one size fits all. A few of the heavy hitters have scripts to detect your location and adjust accordingly but many still just have one price with VAT included that has to be manually subtracted and refunded to non-EU customers.
I think many shops have a tough enough time enabling e-commerce sales even without the regulations of taxes and international ordering. Though many have improved and some are totally hassle-free...I think some of the confusion is from the process of buying online than the regulations themselves.

[lowrey]

When you purchase something online from in the EU they should simply not charge the VAT, which does not apply to export sales, and you should save the full amount.

I doubt its as simple as this. When a store sells something, they charge VAT because they are expected to pay taxes. If the goods are being sent overseas, I assume the store needs to declare each shipment as an export in order not to have to pay (and charge) the VAT, and this preumably involves some paperwork. so I would imagine its at least a bit a more complex than simply leaving the % out of the invoice.

[shdws]

Are you taking into account that VAT varies by country.

Also, its up to the stores if they even do the refund, its not compulsory or anything like that.

OH yea sorry, I should of stated I was referring to oki-ni and LN-CC for those VAT percentages, and yea I remember reading somewhere that VAT is different for each country. However the discrepancies from 20% VAT in the UK is whacked, as I said before I have never got the full 20% back from a UK based purchase oh well.

Anyway for cases if there is no clear indication that VAT is included or excluded in the price, it doesn't hurt to ask the store before purchase. Reason is from my experience I had found out late and missed out on some VAT refund for over 2 years worth of purchases. So now basically every time I purchase from a European boutique/store (If VAT is not identified in the pricing) I email them to find out.

Every dollar you save can be put towards something new :D or a truck load of Creme Brulee.

[fadetogrey]

I'm a little bit frustrated with the level of customer service I'm receiving from Lindestore.com (L'inde le Palais). They had a pre-sale coupon so I was going to pick up a new Rick Owens tank.

This shop includes the cost of duties and taxes in the invoice at check-out for International customers, so you don't get charged on delivery. I put in the code, which gave me the discount, but the cost of duties and taxes stayed the same. So instead of paying 30% extra on the item (at regular price) I'm paying 43% on the discounted price.

This didn't make sense to me- you pay duty on what the item cost. If it is discounted, it cost less, therefore duty (30%) should be calculated on the lowered price.

I emailed them to complain/inform, and I got:

"The promo code is only on the price of the item.

Please let me know if you need further details"

I emailed them back to further explain (basically what I stated above) and haven't heard a response since.

If the cost of duty wasn't included in the invoice, I would have rather taken it up with customs, but since it is paid directly to the store, I refuse to pay more than I am supposed to. It rubs me the wrong way that people could be ordering discounted items but the store is collecting duties and taxes based on the item at full price. I hope that this is just some sort of error on their e-commerce site.

Anyway, sorry for the long-winded post. I just wanted to warn anyone, and also confirm that I am not crazy. I hope that I get some communication from them soon to sort this out, otherwise I won't be ordering anything from them in the future.

[beardown]

A few people have mentioned the hokey pokey that goes along with the mystery of VAT and other fees. It's been suggested that since retailers don't have to report/pay VAT on sales outside of the EU, they sometimes charge them, pocket them, etc.

I'm not suggesting that's what's going on here but the inconsistency of what I've seen has kept me from wanting to buy too much new internationally anymore. You never know what you're going to get hit with by the time it arrives from the carrier, you don't know if VAT is charged and then reimbursed or not. It's literally a crap shoot unless you're dealing with a retailer you've got experience with and a good dialogue with.

Times are still pretty tough for some shops. I hate to think that they take advantage when they can but we know that some have by way of hidden fees and charges. I'd stick with them until you get a satisfactory answer. Maybe some others with experience buying from the shop will chime in to help out.

[docintheory]

A few people have mentioned the hokey pokey that goes along with the mystery of VAT and other fees. It's been suggested that since retailers don't have to report/pay VAT on sales outside of the EU, they sometimes charge them, pocket them, etc.

I'm not suggesting that's what's going on here but the inconsistency of what I've seen has kept me from wanting to buy too much new internationally anymore. You never know what you're going to get hit with by the time it arrives from the carrier, you don't know if VAT is charged and then reimbursed or not. It's literally a crap shoot unless you're dealing with a retailer you've got experience with and a good dialogue with.

Times are still pretty tough for some shops. I hate to think that they take advantage when they can but we know that some have by way of hidden fees and charges. I'd stick with them until you get a satisfactory answer. Maybe some others with experience buying from the shop will chime in to help out.

Just to dovetail to Beardown's thoughts - I think it's just a general rule-of-thumb that when dealing internationally you should automatically assume that there's a chance of getting "dinged" by fees and such. I've resigned to the fact that if it's absolutely a piece that I need, only then will take on the risk of cascading fees and taxes that could result. I've paid some $100-$200 extra on supposed "good deals" when I bought internationally. I think more research and feedback needs to compiled with online international retailers.

[fadetogrey]

Just to dovetail to Beardown's thoughts - I think it's just a general rule-of-thumb that when dealing internationally you should automatically assume that there's a chance of getting "dinged" by fees and such. I've resigned to the fact that if it's absolutely a piece that I need, only then will take on the risk of cascading fees and taxes that could result. I've paid some $100-$200 extra on supposed "good deals" when I bought internationally. I think more research and feedback needs to compiled with online international retailers.

I agree. I can accept inflated prices, or inflated shipping prices, or even getting charged VAT when I shouldn't, and of course expect to be dinged at the border (unless duties are included) if it is something I really want and can't find anywhere else. To be honest, this is the only instance I buy internationally (I try to shop on vacation to avoid such fees)

I guess in this particular instance it was so visual and obvious. A percentage that is supposed to be based on the items actual value- taxes/vat/duties aren't a flat rate. A percentage is a percentage, and it was calculated wrong. I wouldn't even mind if duties only cost 20% and they are charging 30%. If 30% is the rate, that is what I want to be charged.

At any rate, though I want the item, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it if they don't ever return my email. What I am going to do is once their "public" sale starts, check to see if the duties are calculated properly on items that are on sale normally (not just with a pre-sale coupon code) I have a feeling it is just the way their system applies a coupon code style discount.

On another note, I've not had any problems with other stores who include duties- as in, I've never been charged more once it arrives. Many cases even with the extra cost of duties (as ambiguous as the charges may in fact be) the items are still cheaper than buying them in my own country- not that I could most of the time. Selection here is awful at best.

[MikeN]

Or just do what I do when I'm afraid I'll get hit with customs...have the item shipped to a friends office with a made up name!

[Rosenrot]

I've always wondered, what happens when you don't pay the duties after they've delivered the parcels?

[blacktulip]

They re-invoice with supplementary charges once or twice, then they sell the case to a debt collection agency.