random fashion thoughts

[Faust]

Is this about racially diverse models? I'm not sure the "private tastes" here can be separated from white cultural dominance over the field and in representations. I mean it's the same in blockbusters or whatever. I know I'm glad as fuck to be a white man, much less bullshit to deal with.

All I know is that when I am picking a model, it's the model that's right for the project I am doing (granted, there are also constraints of availability, access, etc.). The creative control over the project is all that matters to me - my decision about which model I pick is apolitical. What others think in political terms should not dictate my choice - I don't owe them anything, my only duty is the success of the project.

[Fuuma]

All I know is that when I am picking a model, it's the model that's right for the project I am doing (granted, there are also constraints of availability, access, etc.). The creative control over the project is all that matters to me - my decision about which model I pick is apolitical. What others think in political terms should not dictate my choice - I don't owe them anything, my only duty is the success of the project.

The term "political" may be what is putting you off here. Your (or anyone else) aesthetic choices are shaped by your own background and experiences, the milieu you interact with, the discourse surrounding aesthetics/fashion/etc and the images bombarding you at all time in a digital excess of representation. You react to all of that in a way that isn't necessary a desire to conform, it may be a reaction, an opposition etc but, in the end, if you look at the overall effect on, say, runway choices or editorial choice of models, it results in many things, including an over representation of white chicks and dudes. In fact I could even say northern looking dudes and chicks. I don't see this as the drama of the century but it is symptomatic of how "white-centric" our representations are in western society at large and by extension, in a big part of the pop culture consumed by everyone else.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CmzT4OV-w0

[Faust]

No, I get what you are saying. Like it or not a Vogue cover does not exist in a vacuum. I suppose I am just trying to live in an ideal world :-)
Still, I will maintain that the duty of any creative person is to their work and not to interest groups.

[guardimp]

Why should we treat race differently than any other number of physical characteristics? Also is it race or just skin color, would it be fine if we used people of varying skin color from the same race or people from differing races of the same skin color? Why does this merit concern but only using people of certain height and weight who must have all their limbs does not.

Faust makes the point that casting is up to the person with creative control. What is the positive to robbing them of control of their models, to altering their message? Once diversity is made an issue it seems like focus is shifted off the clothes onto the models, was not that a reason for using a ton of models that all look alike?

[SuE]

Well creative people don't make their work for themselves alone, they produce these objects to be worn and seen. Every creative person should be mindful of their audience (whether to flatter or provoke that audience) and the context in which the audience experiences their work.

[guardimp]

So creative people should compromise their vision to suit their audience? It seems as though this is a difference between fashion as art and fashion as a commercial good.

[Fuuma]

Why should we treat race differently than any other number of physical characteristics? Also is it race or just skin color, would it be fine if we used people of varying skin color from the same race or people from differing races of the same skin color? Why does this merit concern but only using people of certain height and weight who must have all their limbs does not.

Faust makes the point that casting is up to the person with creative control. What is the positive to robbing them of control of their models, to altering their message? Once diversity is made an issue it seems like focus is shifted off the clothes onto the models, was not that a reason for using a ton of models that all look alike?

I'm giving you a portrait of that situation and you're complaining about something you assume I want to do. This reminds me of climate change discussions where people deny the situation or sidestep it because they anticipate on the possible actions to be taken. Illogical thinking in the service of absurd reactions.

[Fuuma]

No, I get what you are saying. Like it or not a Vogue cover does not exist in a vacuum. I suppose I am just trying to live in an ideal world :-)
Still, I will maintain that the duty of any creative person is to their work and not to interest groups.

I think the ethics of duty are indeed very situational, however being aware of the forces shaping your choices is the kind of thing that may enable someone to have a greater understanding and control over their actions. Or not.

[DudleyGray]

On the flip side of the coin, consciously choosing models of non-white race or body type could be seen as exploitative.

[KodakII]

Guardimp,are you being purposefully obtuse or do you really not understand?

[Shucks]

never thought i'd say this, but i'm with fuuma (and dudley) on this. privilege comes with it's own set of blinders...

[Faust]

Well creative people don't make their work for themselves alone, they produce these objects to be worn and seen. Every creative person should be mindful of their audience (whether to flatter or provoke that audience) and the context in which the audience experiences their work.

Creative people's debt is to truth and beauty, not to their audiences. I think you are confusing art with entertainment.

[Fuuma]

Creative people's debt is to truth and beauty, not to their audiences. I think you are confusing art with entertainment.

Art for art's sake? Fashion shoots aren't art anyway but let's just assume they are, it's not because someone like Greenberg said something that it can be transferred to any context, his point was to make non-socially referential art and then (and only then) could it be developed and interpreted without taking into account any sort of sociocultural factor that did not have to do with the art world. That is certainly not the case for a fashion shoot, as it is, by definition, referencing the sociocultural space at large, thus touching areas that stand OUTSIDE of the art world.

It makes more sense to say there are various way to discuss a fashion shoot, some having to do with "pure" aesthetics, others have to do with representations. If you take the work of someone like Andrès Serrano (pretty much agreed to be an artist), you can talk about composition, classical portraiture and all that while looking at the work displayed below and have something valid to say. However it is also interesting to focus on how IT'S A FUCKING KKK MEMBER IN FULL REGALIA PHOTOGRAPHED BY A BROWN PERSON.

[Faust]

Fuuma, the thing I was getting at before we went all philosophical is that I think creative people, as long as they are not fucking idiots (granted, sometimes those who do photo shoots certainly are), should be left to their own devices (provided, obviously that they do not overstep a certain line) and should not be subjected to the PC policing.

[SuE]

Creative people's debt is to truth and beauty, not to their audiences. I think you are confusing art with entertainment.

Creative people attempt to transmit truth and beauty using art to other people i.e. to an audience. If the art is intended for purely private purposes then artist is free to do whatever s/he wants. Ain't no thought crime police. However if the work is presented in a public context, then the responsible artist must be mindful of the culture and the lenses through which the art will be viewed in order to ensure that the truth and beauty contained therein will be understood.

So creative people should compromise their vision to suit their audience? It seems as though this is a difference between fashion as art and fashion as a commercial good.

Fashion as entertainment or fashion as commercial goods, are about peddling lies. It's about forcing a narrative on the population so they buy trends. The models are a big white lie towards that end