A1923 / Adiciannoveventitre (Augusta)

[drizzly]

So we are so much into designer hero worship
That they own prices now?

byhand got my point there.

[miserableman]

I like his work and don't really care where he gets ideas for shoes. I think it's fun that he obviously doesn't give a shit what Mr. Poell and others think of him.

I care, and obviously others do too. Unfortunately he's in a market place where there isn't that much choice, Guidi, layer-0 and MA+ are an acquired taste and CCP's footwear output at the moment is rather limited so A1923 seem do a bit of everything and the price point creates the illusion of it being a superior product. Whether it is or not is not the question.

Does anyone here buy or even talk about sneakers from Cinzia Araia or OSX Rubber Soul? It would be interesting to see if that were the case if the prices were 3 times higher.

I won't deny that some of a1923's footwear look really great but I know it's not really a totally sincere product and that just makes it not as buyable for me as something I know that is, doesn't mean i wouldn't buy it just the decision is not as easy. I think if you care about materials, craftmanship and quality etc etc you have to care about the integrity of the design. Bringing out a reverse leather white hiking boot into this corner of the fashion world is taking the piss really. Maybe he gets off on copying his piers but in the process he makes himself look completely talentless in one specific area, so then it's only natural to question the brand as a whole.

[BSR]

i regret he doesn't sell his ripped-off designs at 3 times the price of the originals, that would be a strong conceptual statement.

note that his copies of M_moria boots were 3 times less expensive than the originals (an exception to the rule of "same shit, same price" stated above)

[byhand]

There is an interesting book called The Anxiety of Influence by Robert Hughes that explores the relationship that artists have with the work that influences their creative process. The book is focused on the work of poets, but the central thesis can be applied to any creative endeavor that has a source of inspiration that often can be identified by a person schooled in whatever field an artist (or artisan in this case) happens to work: poet, painter, shoemaker...

Some creative people go to great lengths to obscure the work done by others that influences/inspires their own output, while others manage to endure the creative process without much anxiety about these influences and make little or no attempt to obscure them. I think Simone is clearly in the later camp. I see him as a craftsperson who is excited about the materials and the quality of the product he produces. Poell also focuses on these things but adds a pinch or two of mad scientist. I don't think any of us ever suspects that Poell is being inspired by work done by A1923, but the reverse often appears to be true. Poell has his own influences. What works in his favor is that these influences are taken not by work done by his contemporaries but instead the history of garment and shoe production, making the influences not as easily identifiable to the consumer of his work. Simone's influences are glaring, but he still makes some kickass shoes.

I haven't bought A1923 trainers even though I very much like them because I know that the design is essentially a copy of work Poell did years ago, so I guess knowing about this influence does prevent me from opening my wallet. I don't seem to be bothered that Poell's shoe was a tweak of a standard armed forces trainer produced generations ago. Poell stopped making them and Simone picked up the design and has produced the shoe with an endless list of leather types and treatments.

Simone's shoes are not as aggressive as Poell's. I usually prefer an A1923 zip boot to a Poell boot simply because one says 'come closer so I can kick you in the head' (Poell) while the other says 'let's go work in the potato field'. This is why Simone's shoes are better paired with Harnden garments. Pairing Harnden with Poell produces a weird clash of moods. Even though the influences may be obvious, at least Simone is a skilled craftsperson who imbues his products with a particular identifier of his hand at work. In this case the identifier is more of a mood than an actual design, usually.

[Faust]

Well, the thing that is particularly interesting in the case of Simone and A1923 is that when one brand swipes the design of another brand it is often to bring the design to market at a cheaper cost to the consumer, to bring the design to an audience that can't afford (or doesn't want to pay) the hefty price tag attached to the original. That doesn't happen with A1923. The prices are always comparable or even more expensive. Not bashing Simone. I like his work and don't really care where he gets ideas for shoes. I think it's fun that he obviously doesn't give a shit what Mr. Poell and others think of him. He does produce a unique piece here and there and obviously is interested in craftsmanship as much as design, so he's not a hack just trying to capitalize on a popular idea. Although, who the customer is for luxe hiking boots confounds me.

That confounds me as well, lol, but I've seen people wear them.

Look, there is an entire consumer class that walks into a shop and buys what they like without any regard or care about provenance. These thoughts don't even enter their mind. There is a wider world outside of SZ, contrary to popular belief.

[zamb]

byhand got my point there.

indeed,
I got the point you were trying to make too but thought it a poor way of stating it.
it’s one thing to ascribe ownership of certain ideas to designers, but its another to ascribe also ownership of certain price points to them.

but then again………….its really none of my business

[Peasant]

I think his prices are similar because there's a similar amount of time, material and production value to them. When someone rips off a design and sells it for a fraction of the price it's usually a fraction of the quality. This is how they're able to do it. I don't think his goods are a fraction of the quality. In some cases, the quality is better (his footwear stands up to more abuse than others, in my personal experience).
There is the cost of design, which he clearly saves on. Also, like E said, so many (likely much more than the number of SZ'ers) don't give a fuck who drew the shape of the toe-box first. They like the shoe. They buy the shoe. End thought process. So if he's making things and they're selling quickly and he raises prices and they're still selling quickly, what's to stop him? Morals? If morals dictated his decisions the footwear wouldn't exist in the first place.

[byhand]

Do you think anyone is buying $2000 shoes without being informed about the maker? Maybe I'm divorced from the world of impulse purchases because I've gotten into the habit of knowing as much as possible about the personalities behind everything I buy from toothbrushes to shoes to bread. I find it more enriching than just randomly buying things that I like.

I think considering the design and maker of a shoe is no less important than anything else that can occupy one's thoughts. It's generally true that knowing more about any topic can make that topic more interesting.

I always find it a bit entertaining when Geoffrey B. Small starts rhapsodizing about button holes. I remember a conversation (I think it took place somewhere in this forum) about shoelaces that was fascinating and seemingly endless.

[zamb]

Do you think anyone is buying $2000 shoes without being informed about the maker? .

Yes, and for this same reason I would say to you, that if you met some people whose work you are fascinated about, their personality and attitude would make you think twice about whether you want to buy said work or not regardless of how "original" or "authentic" it is.

There is a whole lot of people with a whole lot of money in this world that simply buy whatever the hell they like. They dont always have the time or care to be concerned about being informed about the maker of these things because there is (at least to them) more important things to be concerned about.

Take for example that I have owned CCP rubber bands, jointed boots, tornadoes, derbies, sidezips, drips and more than I can even remember, and i dont give a damn about product codes, leather codes, color number or whatever else I see some people fawning about and all that shit. I simply buy whatever I like because the look, quality and aesthetic appeals to me and nothing else matters.............In the end people like what they like for different reasons and simply buy whatever they like for whatever reason they think it worthy of owning

[miserableman]

There is a whole lot of people with a whole lot of money in this world that simply buy whatever the hell they like. They dont always have the time or care to be concerned about being informed about the maker of these things because there is (at least to them) more important things to be concerned about.

Exactly, I assume everyone here at some point has bought things(outside of fashion) without researching them prior. How many people with serious money to spend sit at home and research which is the best TV to buy instead of just going to the store and buying the biggest most expensive one in there?

[byhand]

There is a whole lot of people with a whole lot of money in this world that simply buy whatever the hell they like.

I know these creatures exist. I worked at a swank jewelry store on 5th Ave in my younger years and had any number of customers come in and buy whatever without displaying so much as a quivering eyelash when I mentioned price, and the prices were often astonishing. The most memorable was a too-tan middle-aged man with a Russian accent who bought a very expensive engagement ring with cash (a briefcase full of it) without comparing prices or even asking to see other stones. I think that transaction had more to do with money laundering than his interest in making a giddy fiance swoon, but we are talking about shoes and other items that are conspicuously niche in their appeal. I can't imagine a person buying CCP drips without at least asking about who made them and how they were made. Many of these designers are not easy to stumble across when one is out shopping. They have to be searched for like Jason looking for the Golden Fleece. Maybe this is my take on it because I don't live across the street from IF or Darklands or Harvey's or Ink.

[Rick-A-Doodle]

Working in designer retailer, I know first hand who buys $2000 shoes or $5000 jackets without knowing anything about them.

I saw a kid buy a CCP leather jacket with titanium inserts without knowing anything about it. He was decked out in Givenchy/Balmain/Chrome Hearts and asked who it was by. CCP didn't ring a bell to him. It was awesome.

[Schleudersitz]

These are people who purchase in the way you describe, but it is reasonable to assume that out of those people purchasing CCP or Paul Harnden, a significant proportion will have prior experience and knowledge in purchasing their work that would not be expected from a sample of customers buying Balmain.

[Lohikaarme]

These are people who purchase in the way you describe, but it is reasonable to assume that out of those people purchasing CCP or Paul Harnden, a significant proportion will have prior experience and knowledge in purchasing their work that would not be expected from a sample of customers buying Balmain.

Wait til Poell gets name-dropped by a famous rapper

Hiking boots are a pretty standard design done by many companies. But, guidi is the only i know of that made a high end leather model of those. Not sure why a1923 decided to make his own version.

i noticed that a1923 charges ccp prices for their leathers garments, luc prices for non leather garments, and ma+ prices for footwear.

I like complaining about A1923 and him ripping off designs as much as the next guy (I still don't get why people seem more forgiving of him than others, but whatever), but I'm not seeing a real problem with hiking boots. Guidi might've been the first to make a high quality hiking boot, but the general design of it all (being a hiking boot) has been around forever and the general design/philosophy of it all isn't any one person's idea. If it doesn't work well as a hiking boot, there's where we put the demerit points, but not in him simply wanting a hiking boot. Besides there exist tons of companies that make high-end/high-quality hiking boots, they just aren't within the zeitgeist of this forum.

[drizzly]

indeed,
I got the point you were trying to make too but thought it a poor way of stating it.
it’s one thing to ascribe ownership of certain ideas to designers, but its another to ascribe also ownership of certain price points to them.

but then again………….its really none of my business

Your reply wasn't any less poor and i disagree with you. If you notice my comment got a good discussion going, and it is interesting to read what people think when it comes to the pricing of all the high end items we discuss here.

Yes, many people just buy things for the sake of buying them. I am not one of them and i notice lots of people who care about the details prefer to know more about their garments.

Some creative people go to great lengths to obscure the work done by others that influences/inspires their own output, while others manage to endure the creative process without much anxiety about these influences and make little or no attempt to obscure them. I think Simone is clearly in the later camp. I see him as a craftsperson who is excited about the materials and the quality of the product he produces. Poell also focuses on these things but adds a pinch or two of mad scientist. I don't think any of us ever suspects that Poell is being inspired by work done by A1923, but the reverse often appears to be true. Poell has his own influences. What works in his favor is that these influences are taken not by work done by his contemporaries but instead the history of garment and shoe production, making the influences not as easily identifiable to the consumer of his work. Simone's influences are glaring, but he still makes some kickass shoes.



Simone's shoes are not as aggressive as Poell's. I usually prefer an A1923 zip boot to a Poell boot simply because one says 'come closer so I can kick you in the head' (Poell) while the other says 'let's go work in the potato field'. This is why Simone's shoes are better paired with Harnden garments. Pairing Harnden with Poell produces a weird clash of moods. Even though the influences may be obvious, at least Simone is a skilled craftsperson who imbues his products with a particular identifier of his hand at work. In this case the identifier is more of a mood than an actual design, usually.

1. You nailed it. He gets much more heat because he is inspired by current things.
2. At times yes Poell is more aggressive but it depends on what. I normally look at Tornado vs a1923 spiral zip or dual zip. In that case the a1923 come out way more distressed and more aggressive imo. I don't have much taste for the usole or the one piece boots with titanium.